i am also uncomfortable with the war bonnet in the wakan-tanka set - but i am not first nations/native american, and so my feelings are not the most important in this context. however, i'd like to share with you some writings by native americans on the subject of modern art and fashion depictions of headdresses/war bonnets; i believe these might be a good place to begin understanding why the depiction of native headdresses in particular can be a sensitive issue.

- Métis, Plains Cree. "An Open Letter to Non-Natives in Headdresses."
http://apihtawikosisan.com/hall-of-sham ... addresses/

- Dwanna L. Robertson, Creek/Muscogee Nation. "Pretty Girl in a Headdress."
https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/n ... gets-ugly/

- Adrienne K., Cherokee. "But Why Can't I Wear a Hipster Headdress?"
http://nativeappropriations.com/2010/04 ... dress.html

I'm so ticked off because I just typed a whole thing, and then my stationary page randomly reloaded itself for no reason, and I lost everything. DX I have to type it all over again! And it's always better the first time. Sigh.

Well here goes.

The problem with the first article is that it equates a bachelor's degree with wearing a headdress because they're both something you "earn". But this is a bad comparison, because a bachelor's degree is not fashion. You wouldn't come to a bachelor's degree organically yourself, with all its seals and signatures.

Meanwhile a child who had never seen a Native American in a headdress could quite easily find some feathers and glue it to a headband, and wear it and think it was pretty. And would we call that child racist and appropriative? No of course not. But nowadays, you can be damn sure we would gently explain to him that he's done a bad thing (accidentally of course, we know you didn't mean to!), and explain why it was bad, and tell him why he couldn't wear it, all in our super-evolved goal of teaching him better understanding and sensitivity. Meanwhile the poor child goes away feeling ashamed without really knowing why, and a part of his innocence dies, and he grows learning to be afraid of what he might create and say lest he be shamed and ridiculed.

This is the problem you run into when it comes to the "appropriation" of things that are wearable fashion. Things happen independently of other things all the time, and you can't say because one culture did a thing once they now own it until the end of time even if you here on the other side of the planet just made the same thing out of your head, not knowing it means something to someone else. And what if you DO know? Well let's see.

If a guy wears a headdress because he knows what's involved in earning one, and he claims he HAS earned it when he hasn't because he is a liar, then that guy is a douchebag. No argument. But no one's going to look at that guy and think, "Wow he's so cool, let's all go rip off native shit!" They're going to think he's a douchebag, and the only person he's hurt is himself.

If another guy is wearing one to show his affinity for natives without understanding that BY wearing it, he's actually ticking them off greatly, well then that's a bummer. But that guy will probably soon realize his mistake and rectify it, since he's one of those respectful types, and it's really a non-issue.

What about a guy who finds some pretty hawk feathers in his yard, and he makes a feathered headband out of it? What if he says, "This has absolutely nothing to do with native cultures, I'm just wearing it because I made it and it's beautiful and I like it"? That guy is in my mind completely fine. But undoubtedly not in the minds of the appropriation police (it's even mentioned in your third article that if you think it's "cute" you're still the scum of the earth), and this is what I find so ridiculous. That people want to put limits on what someone can do, something that we all know it literally hurts no one, literally, not at all. To say that in trying to be fashionable you're just a child crapping on the beliefs of others makes you a child yourself because no one owns the idea of putting feathers on things. No one.

And anyway, when you think about it deeper, who cares? Because things don't have power unless you believe in them. An atheist wearing a cross for fashion isn't getting into heaven. That cross has no meaning if he doesn't go to church or follow the Bible or whatever else it takes. A fella can wear a black belt and tell people he knows karate, but unless he's actually studied and earned the belt, he'll get his ass kicked in an alley just like the rest of it. And likewise, a feathered headdress has no meaning unless you believe in the meaning behind it, and you've earned the accolades it is signifying.

First off, I'm not the one who resorted to name-calling. Secondly, there's been countless controversies regarding the headress being used by Non-Native peoples.


So excuse me if I happen to want to do better and would appreciate it if the sites I go to also try to do better. Excuse me if I want people to be appreciative while still being mindful of an item's history. And excuse me if I don't want a site that caters to hipster culture.

If you have a problem with someone wanting others to be decent people, then perhaps you need to really think over the source of your problems.

It's absolutely startling how little you have to say, and how you've failed to address any of my points all in the name of "decency". The decency you yourself have none of, as you attempt to shame and redress strangers.

Great argument, arguing with nothing.

Predictable, yet sad.

JosieQ wrote:It's absolutely startling how little you have to say, and how you've failed to address any of my points all in the name of "decency". The decency you yourself have none of, as you attempt to shame and redress strangers.

Great argument, arguing with nothing.

Predictable, yet sad.

Pray, tell, why do I owe you an explanation when you've done nothing but be unkind to the people who chose to try and explain things in a polite manner?

I linked to that article as part of my explanation as to why the feather headdress is not something to be used just because it looks cool.

Also, sorry for not being on much, but Offline duties trump forum time.

Firn, I think including a little blurb with cultural items, explaining a bit about the history and culture of the items, and/or what inspired you, would not be a bad idea.

I have provided logical argument after logical argument after logical argument, and you people just say "Nope yer meen, not gonna."

It's very transparent you don't know how to think logically, and how convenient you have an out because I said "sad-sack".

Ooooo I'm just the worst.

It's still quite difficult for me to understand, being a person who is also a minority, but happy when others show interest in my culture. When a school I worked at held a culture festival and another teacher was assigned Asia, I happily lent her my hanbok and helped her put it on. If you go to Japan, there are places where foreigners can dress up as Geishas and Oirans and take pictures, without having to go through the education and training these women have to go through in order to become such artists. So on one hand, it's hard to see why showing interest and trying out cultural outfits is so offensive, especially when the way Firn drew these items are not hypersexualized nor hipster-ish but, to my uneducated eyes, trying to keep to the tradition.

On the other hand, I do understand things that are okay within a culture but outside a culture. Certain people may use the n-word, but if someone like me were to address people of certain background by that word, that would be highly offensive. But at the same time, I also understand that the reasoning behind it is that the word originated as a derogatory word and outsiders using it is seen as not trying to take part in that culture but as a reminder of the past hurt. This still doesn't seem equivalent. The headdress comes from a background that's spiritual and is respected. People dress up in period uniform and act out past wars and it's seen as remembering and honoring the sacrifices made by their ancestors, and I have never heard of anyone being offended by having actors that are of wrong ethnicity take part in such activities.

I think the part that makes it the most difficult to understand is that in the cultures I'm familiar with, there is not really a hidden "landmine". There are aspects of my culture such as food, music and dress that I feel excited when people of outside culture show interest and want to try, and I actively make people in my life try them. And yes, there are aspects that I'd be rather offended by if others identified me with them. For example, ff Firn were to make a Dog-stew set with someone eating something that was obviously a dog, or a Miss-Korea set that was items geared toward plastic surgery, I'd be most definitely offended. However, these stereotypes are negative from both inside my culture and outside my culture. I can't think of a cultural "landmine" which I am proud of, that people who aren't from my culture may think is cool, but at the same time wouldn't want others to try, and feel as if they were making light of my culture for trying.

I definitely don't think this set was created in the same light as the Victoria's Secret headdresses where it's just cool, but created to show interest in a culture on this website the way other cultural sets such as Joseon, Oiran, Rockabilly, and Toghu does.

But of course, that doesn't change the fact that the items being used by outsiders can offend. Even if I were genuinely trying to show solidarity rather than trying to refer to a past of slavery, the knee-jerk reaction to me using the n-word would be revulsion and anger, and understandably so. So I'd like to try and discuss something that may be more constructive. What are some aspects of the various First Native cultures that would be okay to share? That people feel pride when they show others and see others trying? What sorts of items would make you feel proud of your culture and happy people are interested in your culture the way it makes me feel when I see people using pieces of Joseon set?

Okay guys, this is getting out of hand and most of all, the tone here of some users is not acceptabl.

Please try to be civilized and respectful and, preferable, take the discussion to the Feedback forum.
I do not think the debate is completely off-topic here as it is about the set I created (which I now fully regret), but it is starting to go more towards people butting heads than an actual debate. ( If you are trying to debate with someone and get your arguments across, being hostile and aggressive usually is not the best way to go about it as that will just make people feel attacked and not really think about what you have to say. It's like shooting yourself in your own food and diminishing you own arguments. No matter how good your argumenst are, people will rather go into defensive-stance than listen to them)

It's not only important to be respectful towards different culturs, but also towards different opinions, even if you do not agree with them and if the discussion continues in such a way, I will have to lock this thread.



I've made a statement regarding this before, but I will repeat myself here: I am truly sorry for making a set that is offensive to some people. I still do not fully understand it, but I do respect the opinion and think that I am not in a proper position to judge this, as I am not native american. I will, as said, try to avoid cultural sets in the future or at least stick to cultures I am more familiar with like Asian cultures.
I am sorry.

It's funny how I keep being seen as super-hostile and rude, when really I'm being ridiculously tame. Especially by internet standards, but even by real-life disagreement standards! I think it's just because I'm not prefacing it with the required "Hey I know everyone's different and believes different things, golly gosh, but this is what I believe" and just cutting to the chase. (And yes, getting frustrated when no one bothers to actually try to have a rational discussion and address the things I put serious thought into. I am human. I do get frustrated.)

But anyway here it is:

Firn wrote:... as it is about the set I created (which I now fully regret)...

And there you go, guys. You win.

I'm done here if you are. Because you won as usual. The shame is fully felt, mission accomplished.

Firn wrote: I will, as said, try to avoid cultural sets in the future or at least stick to cultures I am more familiar with like Asian cultures.
I am sorry.

This just makes me sad. Please don't allow these people to censor your art.